Curse

Konig Des Todes · Sep 17, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

She didn't. She banished the Sunspears from Kourna - and since the Sunspears aren't technically under Istani control, she can't technically blame Istan for what she did (and Istan also has the stronger fleet - even after the fleet was worse than decimated after Gandara, Istan was still able to defend its borders). It seems at least reasonable to think that it's possible there was three years of buildup (on both sides - Varesh towards setting up the ritual) before the attack on Gandara.

I give it a month or two at most. Not a whole three years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

]I STRONGLY disagree on this one. When it comes to GW2 lore, it's easy enough to say "A group of heroes..." or even "A group of heroes from Ascalon, Cantha and Elona..." - over two and a half centuries, it's fair to say that the names have been lost. They could even have Devona & co, but mention that they were helped by other heroes from Ascalon, Cantha and Elona whose names have been lost to history.

They can do that, however, the original lore, short stories, all have Devona and co. doing what our characters have done. Therefore, I take it that the lore perspective, at least the primary quests and missions, are done by Devona and co. (assisted by the henchmen in the area, aka "local heroes"). The side quests can be claimed to have been done by a mixture, some by Devona and co. some by local heroes (most in NF were probably by other sunspears).

However, the GW2 accounts that are linked to GW1 will probably say <GW1 character name> did this and that. Instead of Devona and co. (although I'd prefer if it went with Devona).

And if you ever plan to play the "what about the splitting story-lines in Factions and Nightfall" I'll just go and explain that now.

In Factions, the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest have different heroes, those heroes accompany Mhenlo/Togo and replace our characters (so Devona and co. never went to the luxon side).

In Nightfall, the henchmen may be the same (bad move imo, but was probably done for simplicity), but the hero quotes are different. Some talk about Margrid's missions, others talk about Jurah's missions. That shows which heroes go to which path (which henchmen go where, idk).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

While as far as GW is concerned... the stuff we did, we did. Yes, there's the usual weirdness about how millions of people have done the thing that was done by a party of 8, but as far as storyline is concerned, if you did something, you did it.

That is simple game mechanics, not lore. Different things therefore that argument is irrelevant.

draxynnic · Sep 17, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I give it a month or two at most. Not a whole three years.

They can do that, however, the original lore, short stories, all have Devona and co. doing what our characters have done. Therefore, I take it that the lore perspective, at least the primary quests and missions, are done by Devona and co. (assisted by the henchmen in the area, aka "local heroes"). The side quests can be claimed to have been done by a mixture, some by Devona and co. some by local heroes (most in NF were probably by other sunspears).

Those stories were written before the game was even released. They seem more of a taster and a setting-of-the-environment rather than being an indication that ANet planned for the 'official' lore to be for it all to be done by them. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if, at the time those were written, they were intended as PC standins - at least a couple of those were written before henchmen were even available. It's also worth noting that they aren't on the main site any more... could just be that they've been moved to the wiki, but it could also be an indication that they're not canon as much as they may have been.

Also, I'd point out at this time that the Lazarus line are side-quests.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 17, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Those stories were written before the game was even released. They seem more of a taster and a setting-of-the-environment rather than being an indication that ANet planned for the 'official' lore to be for it all to be done by them. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if, at the time those were written, they were intended as PC standins - at least a couple of those were written before henchmen were even available. It's also worth noting that they aren't on the main site any more... could just be that they've been moved to the wiki, but it could also be an indication that they're not canon as much as they may have been.

I know they were, however, I am sure they knew it was going to be an RPG, with your own character creation. So I think it's highly plausible that Devona and Co. were meant to be the "chosen heroes from Ascalon," from a lore perspective at least.

Quote:

Also, I'd point out at this time that the Lazarus line are side-quests.

I know that. Never said it wasn't. That just means that Devona and co. might not have been the ones to do it, but probably the other henchmen/heroes around there.

Of course, there are probably some side-quests could be done by no extra help (this includes the Lazarus chain), that the NPCs in the quest were able to handle themselves/fight for themselves (or it was nearby guards), and not heroes, henchmen, or our own characters.

In my personal opinion, our characters should be taken out of all lore perspective other then "participating observers" that takes no credit.

Only the heroes and henchmen (and other NPCs), as far as I can note, can be taken as the ones to do the quests and missions (as they are stick with the campaign till the end *with a few Prophecies exceptions*).

The most our actual characters would be doing would simply be the "random adventurer looking to hunt/help people/explore/whatever can be done by not doing quests and missions."

That is, of course, my personal opinion on how the lore should be looked at.

We could just ask Linsey or someone else to clarify this. But where's the fun in that.

Free Runner · Sep 17, 2008, 06:37 AM // 06:37

The short stories were released over small periods of time after the game was released (i believe the last one was just before Sorrows Furnace) and they are on the main site still (they appear to be under the world section since the lore area was redone with the revamp). However they used Devona and Co instead of putting in random new characters.

In GW2 i highly doubt the heroes places would be filled by Devonas group. It will most likely go off what Draxynnic said - using descriptions like "A group of heroes" and "Your descendants". The game is going to be based on some of these new heroes being descendants of the ones who saved Tyria, so replacing them with Devonas group really wouldnt make sense.

So yes Lazarus would of met some Canthan and Elonian heroes since Eye of the North sends heroes from all three continents off to investigate.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 17, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

In GW2 i highly doubt the heroes places would be filled by Devonas group. It will most likely go off what Draxynnic said - using descriptions like "A group of heroes" and "Your descendants". The game is going to be based on some of these new heroes being descendants of the ones who saved Tyria, so replacing them with Devonas group really wouldnt make sense.

First, it would be "Your Ancestors" not descendants. And second, it is quite easy to make characters descendants from one or more of Devona's group. Any one of them can easily settle down and get married, and have kids (didn't they all say in The Epilogue, that they think it's time to not be heroes anymore?), especially Cynn and Mhenlo, since it's clear they are in a relationship already.

And, game-wise, for GW2 it will probably say the name of a GW1 account it is linked to, and those that are not, will either say Devona and co. or a group of heroes. And, for all we know, it for unlinked accounts, they might not even be descendants of any heroes. That could just be done to justify putting the HoM in and linking the two accounts together.

We won't truly know how it will be done until GW2 comes out (or the books, if they mention what happens in the game as a prelude/background). Until then, it's personal opinion and speculation.

Free Runner · Sep 17, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Yes i did indeed mean Ancestors.

The reason they used Devonas group in those stories was because they focused on the actual characters aswell as the events happening. Devonas group were the only characters who moved through the plot with you so they were the ones they used (rather than making up random new characters who have no place in the plot, why not use the ones that actually exist?)

This does not mean all the things done by the heroes (PC) is attributed to Devonas group/the henchmen around at the time. Also i dont understand your point on unlinked accounts being put down as ancestors of Devona, Mhenlo ect - if theres no account to link to, theres no ancestors and no ancestors means no HoM.

And of ofcourse the HoM would directly refer to your character, name and all. I was talking about the stories - "those legendary heroes who fought Abaddon", "the time the group of heroes stopped The Great Destroyer and saved Tyria". Parts of history that would refer to the heroes as a group of adventurers who defended Tyria. Those who played GW1 would know who those heroes were their own characters while people who didnt play GW1 would think they are just historical figures.

Anyway to try and keep this on topic - there is a point where a rather important and proud Elonian (meaning someone who would launch into introducing Elona if asked) interacts with the White Mantle. Kormir, at one point in her travels with the Zaishen, met Olias who was part of the White Mantle. Considering she met him, it wouldnt be absurd to assume that she also met other White Mantle fighters. Of course by the time she meets them the Mursaat have been exposed. But this could be a way for the Mursaat to learn about the Sunspears and of course Elona.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 18, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

This does not mean all the things done by the heroes (PC) is attributed to Devonas group/the henchmen around at the time. Also i dont understand your point on unlinked accounts being put down as ancestors of Devona, Mhenlo ect - if theres no account to link to, theres no ancestors and no ancestors means no HoM.

My point comes from Odgen's line in Odgen's Benediction "the children of legends." And with all talk for GW2 being "your ancestors" that would make it seem like there would be an ancestor connection even without linking accounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Anyway to try and keep this on topic - there is a point where a rather important and proud Elonian (meaning someone who would launch into introducing Elona if asked) interacts with the White Mantle. Kormir, at one point in her travels with the Zaishen, met Olias who was part of the White Mantle. Considering she met him, it wouldnt be absurd to assume that she also met other White Mantle fighters. Of course by the time she meets them the Mursaat have been exposed. But this could be a way for the Mursaat to learn about the Sunspears and of course Elona.

That is a good point to bring up. So it is nigh undeniable that Lazarus knows about Elona, so he would set out to remove their leaders. It's not surprising they would know of Cantha through all the interaction that happened recently (including closing off trade due to a plague, then re-opening trade).

Gmr Leon · Sep 18, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Gotta agree, especially on that last part. We know Mursaat live(d) in the Tarnished Coast/Maguuma Jungle, but nothing says thats where they originated from. And that leads to the possibility of more Mursaat in an unknown land, that was never threatened by the Titans (as they were only released on Tyria), and Nightfall probably didn't happen fast enough for some areas to get affected.

We don't even know how long/far the Maguuma Jungle goes to the west, let alone the land.

Actually, it never specifically states that the Mursaat come from the Maguuma. In the story about Saul, it simply describes him as being taken out blindfolded deep into a thick forest and left to survive on his own. Which is, of course, where he found the Mursaat city, they brought him back to health, etc. etc.

draxynnic · Sep 18, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I know they were, however, I am sure they knew it was going to be an RPG, with your own character creation. So I think it's highly plausible that Devona and Co. were meant to be the "chosen heroes from Ascalon," from a lore perspective at least.

I know that. Never said it wasn't. That just means that Devona and co. might not have been the ones to do it, but probably the other henchmen/heroes around there.

Of course, there are probably some side-quests could be done by no extra help (this includes the Lazarus chain), that the NPCs in the quest were able to handle themselves/fight for themselves (or it was nearby guards), and not heroes, henchmen, or our own characters.

In my personal opinion, our characters should be taken out of all lore perspective other then "participating observers" that takes no credit.

Only the heroes and henchmen (and other NPCs), as far as I can note, can be taken as the ones to do the quests and missions (as they are stick with the campaign till the end *with a few Prophecies exceptions*).

The most our actual characters would be doing would simply be the "random adventurer looking to hunt/help people/explore/whatever can be done by not doing quests and missions."

That is, of course, my personal opinion on how the lore should be looked at.

We could just ask Linsey or someone else to clarify this. But where's the fun in that.

Actually finding out what was intended?

Anyway, it sounds like we have a philosophical disagreement - you think things should be officially done by named characters (ergo, NPCs), I think they should leave the people who did it unnamed and let individual players continue to consider that it was their characters that did it. I'd even go so far as to say that it seems a little unfair to have gone through all the story only to be told "actually, the NPCs did it all. You know, those monks that don't bring condition or hex removal and that ranger with no interrupts? Those guys whose builds are so horribly bad that some missions are virtually impossible to hench? Them? They did everything. Alone."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The short stories were released over small periods of time after the game was released (i believe the last one was just before Sorrows Furnace) and they are on the main site still (they appear to be under the world section since the lore area was redone with the revamp). However they used Devona and Co instead of putting in random new characters.

At least a couple were in mid alpha - I remember reading them when they first went up back in 2004. The use of the old name for Ascalon City (Khylo) is a dead giveaway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, it never specifically states that the Mursaat come from the Maguuma. In the story about Saul, it simply describes him as being taken out blindfolded deep into a thick forest and left to survive on his own. Which is, of course, where he found the Mursaat city, they brought him back to health, etc. etc.

I thought it was specified it was the Maguuma, actually. Could be the forests north of Kryta if it wasn't, though.

Soridormie Santiago · Sep 28, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Just a thought, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but...

What if the Mysterious Stranger is Saul D'alessio?

My reasoning is that after he and the 3 (Habbion, etc.) went to the hidden city of the mursaat, the 3 were sent back to Kryta to spread the new religion, but Saul stayed behind. What happened to him isn't known.

If he wasn't immediately killed on a bloodstone, he may have served the mursaat as a direct mursaat agent. He did after all have a strong magical aptitude which the mursaat realised, and he seemed loyal enough.

As the Mysterious Stranger quest line happens after the Prophesies campaign, you would assume that by now the mursaat around the Krytan areas have virtually been wiped clean with the knowledge of infused armour now available. However, if after the events at the Door of Kormalie some mursaat fled back to the hidden city (Janthir is it?), the mursaat city would have learned of the humans all over the world putting an end to their control over the continent.

At this point Canthan and Elonian heroes would have participated in the events, and the mursaat would almost certainly know of their existence (Kormir traveled to Lion's Arch at one point also). From this we can infer that the mursaat not only had it out for the humans of Tyria, but that of Cantha and Elona.

Saul would have had a few years to become corrupted/enlightened by the mursaats, and - either through loyalty or fear of punishment should he disobey - has been serving the mursaat for the same amount of time.

The rammifications of the assassinations would have thrown the humans all over the world into chaos, and this would provide an opportunity for the mursaat to take back lost ground.

Saul is human, so he wouldn't be too out-of-place traveling to Zimm's Lair through human territory (depending on if he ran into any White Mantle, however he could have changed appearance, or I'm not sure that his appearance is common knowledge) of the Maguuma Jungle. As a magically apt human, he shouldnt have too much trouble getting past the wildlife.

Ugh... I'm going to stop now. Any thoughts?

Free Runner · Sep 28, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soridormie Santiago

Just a thought, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but...

What if the Mysterious Stranger is Saul D'alessio?

My reasoning is that after he and the 3 (Habbion, etc.) went to the hidden city of the mursaat, the 3 were sent back to Kryta to spread the new religion, but Saul stayed behind. What happened to him isn't known.

Actually he was taken by the Mursaat after the battle with the Charr - the only time we hear of him going to the Hidden City is when he first met the Mursaat. He didnt stay behind willingly, he was taken by the Mursaat off to some unknown fate - but judgeing by the look on his face it wasnt to be a nice fate.

Soridormie Santiago · Sep 28, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Referencing a theory on what happened to Saul I read somewhere else, perhaps the mursaat ascended Saul to mursaat form unwillingly, or possessed his body with that of a mursaat. He might have made a powerful lackey given his magical abilities.

Another thought is that Zinn's lair is just about as west as you can get, and the hidden mursaat city is either further west or north...

Free Runner · Sep 29, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

I think it more likely that he was killed on the bloodstone rather than given greater powers. He was a tool to the Mursaat and they went as far as to give this tool their most powerful ability - so its only natural that the tool should be discarded afterward, but they needed the other White Mantle to further their plans, hence why they took him off rather than killing him infront of his followers.

Theres also the fact that the Mursaat are pretty much wiped out with Lazarus being one of the last. Where would Saul fit in then? and what motive would he have to attack the 3 most prominent Human areas in the world of Tyria?

Oh and we dont know where the Hidden City really is. Most things point to Rata Sum but in actual fact we're never told which Jungle/Forest its in.

Soridormie Santiago · Sep 29, 2008, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Saul's motives would be to weaken human resistance so that the remaining mursaat (however few there may be) can strike back, if for vengance or for a more strategical reason. If for whatever reason he survived this long in mursaat hands, he would be under the impression that the unseen gods are very very powerful, and he may believe that them ruling over Tyria is better than human rule. Greater good-type scenario.

Or he could have been possessed or ascended

On a different note it could be any of the mursaat, for their reasons would be much the same

Konig Des Todes · Sep 29, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I don't think Saul would have been given greater powers, as Free Runner said, he was given their greatest ability, and after the Mursaat killed off most of the White Mantle that saw them, Saul was struck with fear.

Instead of following the Mursaat anymore, Saul would strike against them, which is why they took him away.

The fact that Saul realized that he put the people of Kryta into worse rulers then the threat of the Charr (As said in the book, traded one set of chains for another, I believe), disregards your through that "he may believe that them ruling over Tyria is better then human rule."

Ascended has nothing to do with following the Mursaat or the Mursaat keeping him alive (In fact, if he was somehow ascended, which btw would mean he went to the Crystal Desert and there is no evidence of that, he would have become a greater threat by possibly taking part in the Flameseeker Prophecies *that is, releasing the Mursaat's demise*).

Possessed, possible but unlikely, there is nothing to support possession by the Mursaat, just manipulation and Lazarus splitting his essence into other beings.

I stand by either Dhuum/Menzies (Their reason would be revenge for killing most of their forces in FoW/UW/Tombs/Dragon Festival/RoT and another attempt to prevent human interfering when they attack Grenth/Balthazar again) or Lazarus and whatever few remaining Mursaat there are.

Only liable candidates imo.

Soridormie Santiago · Oct 02, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

When i said ascended, I meant "evolved" from human form to that of a mursaat, and i suppose that rather than Saul, my theory was more encompassing that of all of the mursaat over that of Saul specifically.

I do believe that there is something to the location of Zinn's lair being at the western-most point of the Maguuma Jungle, and Tyria. I believe that the hidden city is said to be somewhere in "the jungle", and maguuma being the jungle of tyria (at least from what we've seen) it is more reason that it serve the mursaat as a point to strike back from.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 02, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I think we should leave out Zinn's Lair, because it said that Zinn relocated after he got freed, with directions to his new lab with M.O.X. (probably given remotely or when we visit the Vision of Zinn in the book mission).

Free Runner · Oct 02, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soridormie Santiago

I believe that the hidden city is said to be somewhere in "the jungle", and maguuma being the jungle of tyria (at least from what we've seen) it is more reason that it serve the mursaat as a point to strike back from.

Actually thats the thing - its never said to be in a Jungle. Infact its not mentioned where it is. All thats said is Saul was driven out to a forest that was at least 3 weeks away from Kryta, and while moving through the forest he eventually came across the city. This forest could be North for all we know. The only indication we are given for the Magumma to be the location of the Hidden City is the mysterious mist that shrouds the Ullen River.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I think we should leave out Zinn's Lair, because it said that Zinn relocated after he got freed, with directions to his new lab with M.O.X. (probably given remotely or when we visit the Vision of Zinn in the book mission).

Its never said that he relocated. He also never builds directions into M.O.X. - There would be no point in him giving you a clue to where it is if the Golem knew it already.

A11Eur0 · Oct 03, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

I'm going to say it was Zinn himself, and MOX was his final creation he was using to test to see if it was good enough to be owned by the only people in the world that could challenge him...US. I think that MOX is a mole assassin, allied with/owned by the most trusted, well known heroes in history, the heroes that saved the world 4 times. Who better to play the mole than us? We're pretty much allowed access to the inner sanctum of every noble in the world, we're trusted above all. It would be a good way to discredit our names. What if that's the problem with our descendants in GW2...having to live with the knowledge that their ancestors were traitors to their lands by killing off their leaders in cold blood(actually MOX that did this, but we were framed). That might be their quest, to redeem their names. MOX probably shows up as a recurring enemy in GW2 after we find out exactly what happens.

NOX, POX, and ROX were merely powerful tests as well as mechanisms to allow the leaders to trust MOX because he fights along side us to defeat them.

Zinn is an asura. Zinn is also VERY egotistical, a common trait among popular villains. Asurans feel superior to humans. Maybe Zinn got jealous that we heroes were gaining popularity among the Asuran race and he wasn't being given credit for his "genius". Egotistical genius hiding out in his own secret lair pushing the buttons and manipulating the naiive bookahs to his own devices. Sounds like classic game villain to me.

Nail on the head? Was it posted already in the thread? I didn't read the whole thing.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

A11Eur0, that thought has been posted, in this thread and the one over on GWO. At least to a degree (they said it was Zinn, but didn't go as far as saying M.O.X. will kill the nobles after).

The problem against this theory, is that he is egotistical, he cares too much about his reputation.

Also, as you said, the heroes saved the world 4 times, people would give us a chance to kill M.O.X. and bring Zinn in if what you said was true.

And, if Zinn cares about his reputation so much, I don't see why he would risk making M.O.X. the true assassin, just blame it all on that mysterious stranger who forced him to make P.O.X. and N.O.X. *as R.O.X. wasn't a forced creation*.

I think there are only three possibilities, those are:

1. Lazarus
2. Dhuum/Menzies
3. Zinn

I personally hope for Dhuum/Menzies -especially if the quest chain is followed to the point of us killing the Mysterious Stranger- and I highly disagree with the Zinn theory, but there isn't enough to disprove it.